PIP40: Yield Farming - autoharvesting and reinvesting PIE

mars · January 1, 2021, 1:17pm

Might be related to PIP 11: Yield Farming++

Background

Currently, to do yield farming it takes loads of transactions.

I will use $SUSHI as an example, the same is true for $UNI.

5 transactions to get in:

get the $SUSHI by sending ETH
approve $SUSHI
provide liquidity, receive LP (liquidity provider) tokens
approve LP
stake LP

2 or more transactions to get out:

unstake LP (sometimes need to approve LP again)
withdraw liquidity (depending on the platform can get proportional or single asset)

Goal

I would like to minimize the number of transactions.

I would like to automatically harvest and reinvest the profits, just like https://yearn.finance

Asset allocation?

There are some notable dashboards

Ideally, a couple of different farms to minimize the risk of smart contracts and rug pulling.

$SUSHI / ETH on SushiSwap comes to mind as a sure-fire candidate for the spot number 1
TBD…
TBD…
TBD…

This is because I believe in the power of dominant networks. Bitcoin: dominant monetary network, Ethereum: dominant smart contracts network, SushiSwap: one of the two dominant swapping networks (the other one is Uniswap but not yielding $UNI tokens anymore)

The overall allocation of assets would be 50% ETH and the remainder 50% of various tokens…

Next steps

Reality check: does it make sense?

Maybe it already exists, is already proposed, discussed, someone else is doing it already…

Once there is some positive feedback we can evaluate what is the optimal flow, allocation, ratios.

If the idea is crap: even better, scrape it, fall forward.

Cryptouf · January 1, 2021, 3:08pm

Hi @mars

I’m not completely sure I understand.
You want to create an Indexe containing Vaults ?

Ex: Take all yVaults and create a Pie ?

Or do you want PIEDAO to create vaults ?

Basically you want a more aggressive vesion of the YPIE (https://pools.piedao.org/#/pie/0x17525e4f4af59fbc29551bc4ece6ab60ed49ce31) .

Instead of “native staking” you want to optimise yield ?

mars · January 1, 2021, 4:06pm

Some discussion here: https://discord.com/channels/544810647683072000/544811126836428800/794580751622340638

My proposal is in response to YPIE: https://pools.piedao.org/#/pie/0x17525e4f4af59fbc29551bc4ece6ab60ed49ce31

Why lending at 4% APY when can yield farming at 10x and more?

Yield farming underlying assets, as opposed to just “lending”.

gabo · January 2, 2021, 10:34am

Hey @mars if I got it correctly the major constraint I see is that you should also contribute the 50% ETH side to yield farm those tokens. So that would be slighlty different than having a productive index like YPIE, since would imply wrapping the same with ETH, and providing reward only to LP of this new ‘YPIE/ETH’ product

mars · January 2, 2021, 12:29pm

I actually do not see it as a problem.

I see it as “it is what it is”.

Most of the guys here are bullish on ETH, holding ETH is not a problem. The problem that I see is diversifying into “shitcoins” but if there is 200-300% APR with harvesting and reinvesting I can actually take the risk.

Criteria

Criteria when choosing yield farming tokens

Risk reward ratio
Audits
Trust (don’t trust, verify)
Brand
Community
Number go up, economic validity of a token
Diversification (different platforms, not everything on a single one)

Suggested farming pairs pairs

Sushi - biggest network
Badger - fair launch
Dough - meta dog fooding
Doki - simply because I like their design: https://dokidoki.finance/
Harvest - cool brand
1 Inch - cool airdrop
Balancer - active use

Personal view

I think I would comfortably put 10-20% of my crypto portfolio in such a pie.

High exposure to ETH - good
High yielding farms - good
Harvesting and automation - good
Saving gas fees - good
Diversification - good

Random

There should be some EIP ERC for harvest() or deposit()? Would make interacting with all the farms easier

Lui · January 2, 2021, 1:49pm

I would also throw a % of my holdings on such a pie, though maybe less than 10%. Only question for me is, what is the strong USP that differentiates such a pie from all the other yield farming platforms? Are we just saving gas by pooling together to do the transactions? Isn’t this already done elsewhere? Is the DAO going to again be subsidizing gas?

mars · January 2, 2021, 4:12pm

USP benefits:

diversification
auto-harvesting
auto-compounding

Who else is doing it?

Massively inspired by https://yearn.finance/vaults (single asset only)

TODO: do you know a product that does it for yield farming? 99% NO, PieDAO is at the forefront of innovation

Gas subsidy?

Not necessarily. The harvested profits can pay for gas.

Profit allocation policy

For example SUSHI / WETH pair, the reward is in SUSHI

Suggested breakdown:

90% to be reinvested (as SUSHI / WETH LP)
5% to DAO treasury as ETH
3% subsidizing gas fees as ETH
1% Ross Ulbricht defense fund as ETH
1% Mars Robertson personal supply as ETH

That means:

45% kept as SUSHI
55% of SUSHI sold to ETH, out of which 45% to be kept in the pool, the remaining 10% distributed (back to the DAO, pay for gas, Ross and me)

TBD, TBC, “reality check”

I’m 100% open minded, receiptive to feedback.

“Fail forward” - each failed idea is a learning experiment, always having the enthusiasm to start again fresh.

Cryptouf · January 2, 2021, 5:06pm

yes so basically you want a Pie, with an yVault for each token.

Is it possible to do that ?

If PieDao want to do something similar it’s a lot of work. Because yield farming is very dynamic and a good strategy can be a bad strategy in few days. So you will need something with different statagies. It’s excatly what Yearn is developing for the v2. but it’s a lot of work.

In theory I 100% agree with you. A pie with yiedl farming would be amazing. Diversification + highest yield. But i think it’s a lot of work.

And other possibility is to use an “Yvault Pie”
eg: DAI, USDC , ETH, YFI. And then each asset is put on an yVault.

richandcreamy · January 2, 2021, 5:19pm

Auto farming would be great! When I was playing around with https://hny.farm/ I spent a lot of time rebalancing based on APY. Having an asset that would seek yield and balance between cost, gas, and other factors is very appealing.

I’d like to see other pies turned into pie vaults before another pie is realesed though.

mars · January 2, 2021, 5:53pm

Dammit! It is closed already…

To be fair, I would not seek strictly the highest APR %. Super high APR % is often temporary.

I would seek something stable, reputable, with liquidity, with long term prospects and predictable monetary policy.

Of course, to develop such a Smart Contract would be some work, especially if there are no standardized interfaces between various yield farming protocols.

This is close: https://github.com/studydefi/money-legos BUT not for yield farming.

Probably the difficulty with the smart contract: ability to execute arbitrary transcations. Timelock. 4bytes function signatures. Operating everything in a decentralized and trustless way - complicated but not impossible.

BlockEnthusiast · January 3, 2021, 9:24am

maybe as an alternative, could we farm YPie/ETH sushi farm?

I think in general you raise a good point that there pooling harvests is beneficial to users. Having a way to pool entry into farms which utilize Pie’s could further differentiate the brand, provide value to users in reduced gas costs, and a wrapped strat, don’t need liquidity for themselves, as they’d be a distinct offering from Pies, which serve to provide liquidity to pies.

BlockEnthusiast · January 3, 2021, 9:26am

We have been having discussions on a reformat of USD++ into a curve farming Vault. I’ll try to formalize a forum post on what I have so far soon.

mars · January 3, 2021, 9:27am

But where are the rewards coming from: https://sushiswap.fi/pools

I see no incentives to farm `YPie/ETH`

BlockEnthusiast · January 3, 2021, 9:29am

You need to go to the Onsen Menu Screenshot from 2021-01-03 04-31-09

mars · January 3, 2021, 12:57pm

Is that stable, sustainable, predictable?

I’m not sure how often we want to rebalance the pie.

Suggested farms, suggested pairs?

I don’t want unstable 500% on some shitcoin that will dump. More predictable 200% is better IMO.

Slightly similar: https://www.tokensets.com/

BUT: only single pair, only single farm, Uniswap does not pay rewards. Pretty useless IMO.

DRAFT:

Propose your favourite farms there…

btsfav · January 5, 2021, 6:28am

there is no such thing as predictable in these areas.

mars · January 5, 2021, 12:56pm

I agree. There is no predictability. We are talking approximation.

Some things are known from the very begininng: “promo period 2 weeks only” and crazy APR

Some things have a long record of running.

Preference to be given to “boring, stable, predictable” blue chips, as oppposed to $DEGEN10 and likewise.

Alternative approach

BCP holds 33% ETH and 33% DEFI++ various tokens…

I’m comfortable to pair ETH with these tokens and yield yield yield even more

mars · January 9, 2021, 10:29pm

Very nice: https://sushiswap.fi/pair/0x5f30aac9a472f6c33d5284f9d340c0d57ef33697

PICKLE: None

Pickle should be staking natively: https://app.pickle.finance/stake

Cool

I’m very grateful for DEFI++

It would be never possible for me to obtain exposure to so many innovative projects.

I was just thinking about farming underlying assets but YEARN and PICKLE are already doing something similar.

Thank you guys! Much love

mars · January 30, 2021, 9:00am

PIP40: Yield Farming - autoharvesting and reinvesting PIE

Background

Goal

Asset allocation?